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The End of Nations

12 03 10 - 09:08

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The French philosopher Ernest Renan once defined a nation as ''a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbors.''

Emma Goldman once stated: "Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.
The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner."

History abounds with examples which excoriate the fallacy of nationalism, exposing it for the odious, rancorous lie which it demonstrably, undeniably is. Let us take for our pertinent example the "nation" of Spain. The "nation" of Spain is said to occupy about 4/5ths of the Iberian Penninsula, at the terminus of western Europe. Framed on the east by the Pyranees mountains, the land mass is characterized by plains and hills. It has been inhabited by a variety of people throughout history. Some of the earliest evidence of modern human habitation of Europe is found in Spain, as well as numerous pre-human (Neanderthal) sites. The region is home to the Basque language, which is one of the oldest languages on earth, even predating the expansion of the Indo-European language groups into western europe, and has no surviving relatives. The region was a critical battleground for the conflict between the Roman and Cartheginian empires, eventually becoming a Roman province. It is argued that Castilian Spanish (notably argued mostly by Castilians) is the closest surviving relative of the original Roman Latin. After the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the region existed as a series of independant, occaisionally warring provinces, until it was conquered by the Moors. The Moors, a group of moslims from northern Africa, crossed the straits of Gibraltar, bringing within them an enduring peace and an enlightened society, which stood for nearly 800 years like a beacon of civilization and prosperity in contrast to the barbarism of medieval Europe. The Moors were eventually expelled by a genocidal group of Christian Zealots from the region of Castille, who through military campaigns and inquisitions, were able to remove the Moors from Spain, leaving the areas largely depopulated by virtue of expulsion or slaughter. The small population of Christian Spain was insufficient to fill the void of the now empty lands, so the monarchy opened the lands up for settlement by the burgeoning population of France. A massive influx of French people left a permanent mark on the landscape, and also the Spanish Language, both of which are readily observable to this very day. As with many feudal societies, Spain became heavily provincial; people from Asturias were Asturian first, Spanish second; Aragonese were Aragonese, Castillians were Castillians. Being Spanish was really only useful for the purposes of the monarchy and Church, and the dissimilarities culturally and linguistically between the provinces are still evident, and contentious, to this day. Rather than one nation, it was a loose collection of people and provinces which were not only distinct but also often at odds with one another, occasionally identifying as Spanish for convenience and military or political expediency.

During the 1930's, when the Fascists, or Nationalists as they preferred to call themselves, endevored to overthrow the rule of the people of Spain, they claimed to fight for "Hispanitud", or "Spanishness". The Fascists utilized a number of historical comparisons in their propaganda; especially favored was the idea that they were going to "re-conquer" Spain from the forces of liberalism and democracy, as the Castillians had done when they expelled the Moors (Ironically, the vast majority of Nationalist troops were conscripts from Morocco, decendents of the Moors). But was it Castillian Spanishness? Or Aragonese Spanishness? It couldn't have been the Spanishness of the French settlers, and certainly wasn't the Spanishness of the Moors, who controlled Spain for longer than the Spanish; nor was it the Spanishness of the Romans or Cartheginians, nor the Basques nor the Gauls nor the Neanderthals. In reality, the Spanishness they proffered was an elaborate series of bland, chauvunistic euphamisms for exactly nothing. There is no historical "Spanishness", and even today there is still none. The fascists sought to create a myth of national purity, because doing so allowed them to put themselves in a position whereby they were the sole judges of that supposed purity. Acting as though they were the divinely-appointed guardians of this ridiculous nationalist mendacity, they could justify the mass slaughter of whomsoever they saw fit, for political expedience. History falls to the wayside when the powerful have a mythology to support their agenda, and no matter how ridiculous that myth may be, no matter how demonstrably false, the powerful will stop at nothing to make sure that myth goes unquestioned. 

The story of Spain is the same for all nations, though of course the anecdotal information is different. The nation is a myth; a powerful, destructive myth, which lays waste to the earth and makes slaves of its people. Nations require for their sustenance the exploitation and domination of the people contained within them; the cruelty engendered in this system naturally creates a high degree of instability and resentment among the exploited. The mythology of a nation is critical to its ruling class, because beyond the force of violence of deprivation, the ruling class has else nothing by which to justify their domination of the proliteriat. People believe myths, people love myths. We incoroporate these myths, taught to us since birth, into our psyches and define ourselves by them. The ruling class who are served by these myths also retain the power to alter them to fit their political, economic, or military schemes and designs. The utility for the ruling class of national myths cannot be overstated, because people will work for myths, people will fight for myths, people will die for myths. And the ruling class is always very interested in making sure that they can get people to work for them, to fight for them, and to die for them. The nationalist myth is the only distinction between the governments today and the tyrants of history. The difference between Ghengis Khan and Benyamin Netanyahu is that Netanyahu wants to make sure that your neighbors believe his lies before his troops crush you and your family. At least the Mongols were honest in their conquests: they didn't claim to fight for some purpoted "mongolianness" or some ridiculous national myth that their god chose them to be the rulers of the world. When the Mongols destroyed your irrigation systems and burned your orhcards and razed your village, they didn't try to enforce some circuitous logic to make the victim into the villain. They wanted plunder, they wanted power; in this they were no different than the plutarchs and tyrants who rule our world today.

The plain fact is that nations technically, literally do not exist. They aren't real in any sense of the word. Go to the borders of a country, and look to the ground. You will find no dividing line, though one may be supposed to be present. Perhaps you will find a wall, or a some natural barrier; but the land on either side of the wall will be roughly the same, and the mountains and rivers of this world far predate mankind and his petty machinations. Where is this nation which delineates these territories? The nation is not the wall: the wall is merely artifice, a stacking of meaningless rubble. Perhaps the nation can be found in its documents? But these are merely parchement and ink, having no power beyond any other piece of paper. Is the nation the man in the uniform with his weapons, or the politician and his lies? No, for these are merely men, fallible and mortal as any other.
The nation is an elaborate fantasy which lives only in the imaginations of people. Though it may build edifices of marble or gold, though it may wage wars and issue decrees and cause incalculable suffering and destruction, these things are not themselves the stuff of nations. They are the affects of nations. A nation is nothing, literally nothing, but a frankenstein construct of a myriad of lies and myths with one unifying purpose: to make certain that the downtrodden and exploited remain so, and to make sure that those who have power keep that power. And though both king and peasant may be made to believe the same myth, for that the myth is no more true. 

The most potent weapon against the nation is simple disbelief. Since it lives only in the minds of people, all that is needed to destroy any nation is to deny it it's feeding grounds. To change the minds of men can be simpler than it may seem, and once a person has seen the fallacy for what it is, they can never return to belief. Starve the nation of minds, and it will fall more easily than a house of cards.

We are already free. The people are inhibited only by the lies they believe; lies that they are powerless, lies that they are inferior, lies that they need leaders, lies that evil is the condition of man. The yoke of opression, the chains which bind us to tyranny and exploitation, have only the wieght which the individual gives to them. Their strength exists only to the extent that an individual may be made to identify with them, to accept them. Even the whip of governmental reproach and reaction which scourges the flesh of free people is powerless in the shining light of undeniable truth. They can steal our lands, burn our works, and take from us our very lives. But they cannot, for all of their lies and all of their cruelty, deprive us of our convictions, and no amount of violence or coercion is sufficient to subjugate once more a mind which has been liberated by truth.
We've already won, comrades. Let's go out into the world and enjoy our victory. Spread the word. Sing it loud, sing it proud. Shout it, scream it, print it, post it; just don't wait for it. 

Dan


151 comments

Love the article man. Down with nations, up with equality and the individual.
ForgetYourHero - 18 03 10 - 10:55

Hit the nail on the head. Keep up the excellent work, my eyes are opened a little bit every day.
FormerBeliever - 19 03 10 - 13:27

My thoughts exactly! Glad to see others realize it too.
thediabetik () - 19 03 10 - 18:18

No myths go down without a fight. I therefore disagree with the sentamint that we have already wone. Obviously, I am against nationalism, as such it will get the fight it deserves. However… I also see the nesesity for the myths. Man is naturally inclined towards gathering into groups of likeminded indeviduals. The myths can act as the creating and stabalizing element in these groups. Nations and religions would have started out of this need, and thrived as the myths became stable. To defeat both religeons and nations, we must crete a replacment. Social organizations which, at the verry least, have strong defences against the likes of corruption. Worker unions? One per factory. Comunity clubs? Limited geographic regions they operate in.
This is, of course, only the begining. Nations will not end unless we fight. To end the myths corrupting the common man, the truth must be brought to them at the end of an olive branch. If we can replace the social need filled by them, then we will. Good luck

-Comrad Crypt
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Metalhead_Hippie - 24 03 10 - 05:03

I would also say that nationalism is not a way of acheaving any goal, it’s a goal in itself. Nationalism breeds on nationalism and it uses any means to perpetrate itself.
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The big contradiction of anarchy is that if there is no government to enforce anarchy, how would anarchy be upheld. A society would have to form an anarchy enforcement army which would immediately begin to undermine the very purpose of anarchy, so anarchy is really just a fantasy. The most basic and primitive societies that have ever existed quickly gravitated toward some form of governing body: usually a form of dictatorship. The government under the U.S. Constitution is the closest any society will ever get to anarchy. Anarchy leads to tyranny.
Jeff Jefferson () - 03 04 10 - 14:34

In an anarchist society each and every person would know their responsiblilites as a member of said anarchist society, partly because the population of the community would be small. There would be no need to create an “anarchy enforcement army.” And no, goverernment as we know it has existed for a much shorter time than organized human societies. Many if not most tribal societies could be described as anarchistic.
thediabetik - 03 04 10 - 19:55

Most tribal societies choose a chief figure which is a form of monarchy. How would an anarchistic society enforce their small population, and how would people be made to abide by their responsibilities? You could put twenty people on an island and within a few weeks half of the people would be shirking their responsibilities. An anarchistic society would quickly devolve into bands of warlords.
Jeff Jefferson () (URL) - 04 04 10 - 06:47

However, mankind was not born into a tribe. Furthermore, it is imprudent to presume that previous models of human organization repeat themselves; this is rather contrary to the case of human development. We may borrow from the past for ideas and examples, to better understand ourselves as social creatures, but we should not look to the past to find specifically correct formats. The social organizations of human history took the forms which they did over time and developed in response to changing circumstances, generated novel new societies and cultures. We too must adapt in response to the changing circumstances of our own times.

Though I wonder which type of responsibilities one might shirk whilst sharing an island with 19 strangers, I think the better question may be when the survival of 20 interdependent individuals is dependent upon the maximization of productive capacity out of each, what good does it do for that society to be burdened and drained by a professional military/political group? The remaining islanders who had to pick up the productive slack left by the professional ruling group would be very ill served by such system, and would be well to overthrow their opressors. Beyond the unlikelyhood that such a scenario would develop, you are presuming these people to operate on the “authority principle”, where decision making is justified by violence, i.e. “Might Makes Right”.
That operational principle is not ubiquitous to human organization; it is not written in our DNA that we organize ourselves that way. There are many alternatives which, in the fullness of modern human knowlege, can be adapted to the development of novel systems of human social organization. The story of humanity is one of a trend away from violence and domination, towards cooperation and coexistence. Periodically the people find it necessary to, in great movements, expand the scope and accelerate the pace of this development; though this goal is often subverted and diverted, it is no less worthwhile, and becomes more achievable by the day.
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We look to the past to know what will happen in the future because although times and situations change, human nature remains the same. If you have ever watched the television show “Survivor” you will see that one of the first things that causes problems within a group is certain members not living up to their responsibilities. It is not that I believe might makes right, but in a realistic world view, one could say that might takes right. In a destabilized society, the powerful will call the shots; this is why a society should create an organized enforcement body with strictly limited powers. I believe that the U.S. Constitution achieves this ideal. There is no reason to look for a more perfect system because it has already been created. Throughout history the average person has desired a peaceful existence, but the fact is that humanity has gotten increasingly more bloody and destructive. There were more people slaughtered in the last century than all of the previous centuries combined. If one believes in real political progress, he/she should study the Constitution and work to make his/her country internalize its ideals.
Jeff Jefferson () (URL) - 06 04 10 - 08:57

Jeff, there are several problems with your last argument. Survivor, I will agree, can be used as an example of a anarchistic society. However, it contains the element of greed. I will not attempt to argue that greed will be completely absent from what we are working towards here. However, the end result all contestants are working towards in Survivor is ultimately the prize money. This means that certain people will enter the competition with the mindset that they want the money with the least amount of effort. This causes the lack of desire to contribute fully. Again, I will not try to argue this will be absent in an Anarchistic society, however without such a strong focus on money, a greater portion of the population will be less focused on greed and other self fulfilling motivations and more focused on local community wellness.
Yet again, I am not going to argue that some people, for whatever reason, end up powerful. They can be stronger, smarter, a forceful personality, a greater amount of experience in something, etc. Whatever ends up causing it, they end up in a position of control in whatever community they belong to. However, the point I can’t agree with is the solution you propose. Obviously you meant to go for a government with “Enforcement Body”, and it isn’t just the government i am against, but the idea of such an entity. The problem lies both with the concepts of inherent greed and the existence of the powerful. This means that, no mater the system, if there is a position with a notable amount of power, that position is at risk of being overtaken by a powerful person who is concerned with their private interests than the communal benefit. The constitution cannot solve this. It doesn’t successfully limit the powers of the president such that a peaceful existence is guaranteed by its existence and implementation. Indeed, you destroy your own argument by asking us to look at history. Much of the inclined violence in the last century involved the US. World war 2 was fought mostly by modern first world nations, or at least what counted as such at the time. Since then many wars have been fought by the states as the aggressor and a weak third world group as the victim. Certainly, things like the crisis in Dafur and other regional conflicts work outside my criticism of the US constitution, but they do exist based around an organized body with corrupt members. The Constitution did not stop this in the States. It is far from the perfection you think it holds. With the things in the state it is in, as violence in the world escalates, you must look for the real issues rather than hold on to ideals which are falling apart. True, we anarchists may be presenting a superficial solution by focusing on the end of governments, but this, at least in my case, is due to the realization that the existence of an organization, limited or not, that has the kind of power a government has is like a lightning rod for people who will want to abuse the power that comes with positions in this institution. The worst flaw with something like a constitution lies with the common person. Rarely will they truly understand how it works or what is the correct conduct under its rules. A few months ago, there was a mess with the politics in Canada because a single political party (out of four that have power in government, with a fifth that has increasing influence), despite controlling around 40% of the power in government has been acting as if it controls all of it. The other parties attempted to get together into a Coalition which would represent around 60% of the government. The coalition failed because the opposing party manages to cram the media with enough misinformation that the common person believed coalitions were unconstitutional. Not only are they alright, historically they have existed at many different points. Because that party has remained improperly opposed, Canada has remained in the war in Afghanistan, the removal from which was a platform of the Coalition.
I will concede this, the Canadian Constitution is not the American one. However, even if you can prove that a constitution can be perfect, and that the US one is, the story of the Coalition is an example of how an improperly educated public can be manipulated into believing anything those with enough power will say to keep power. The US constitution was written over 200 years ago and doesn’t apply to today’s society.
In conclusion, while you, Jeff, may study the constitution far too few people will. It is also presumptuous to believe that, universally, that all humans want peace. Think about the middle east, where the religion of the reaction has convinced most of the populous that violence is highly appropriate against non believers. Also think about the public reaction after 9/11, and how it became a priority to go after those responsible with war, particularly the common person. You have projected personal, present beliefs as if it is or should be how most people, essentially always act. Working towards peace within your country isn’t enough. Knowing the Constitution isn’t enough. It is too easy to corrupt people. The corrupt go for power. It is not about guaranteeing people living up to responsibilities. Thank you and good night.

-Conrad Crypt
C.C - 08 04 10 - 09:48

Conrad, You have given me a lot to answer to, so I will just try to answer point by point.

The shirking of responsibilities on Survivor has nothing to do with prize money. It is just human nature. Some contestants do not want to live up to their responsibilities within the group.

I do not know why you think that an anarchistic society would be less focused on money and more focused on community wellness; that idea runs counter to human nature and seems like a fantasy.

You disagree with the existence of an enforcement body. I say that there will be an enforcement body no matter what kind of system is put into place. No enforcement body would quickly turn into warlord rule. Warlords would eventually become feudal lords. This system has been tried. It held mankind in misery.

The president has limited powers. Power hungry leaders are held in check by electorate. The problem is that prosperity led to voter apathy, so the system has been abused. There is a movement in the U.S. right now to return to strict adherence of the Constitution. Whether or not the system can be restored remains to be seen.

The historical context that I was referring to was not about wars at all; I was talking about people being murdered by their own government. A good argument could be made why the U.S. should not have been involved in some of the conflicts in the last 100 years, but I will say that calling the U.S. the aggressor is left-wing propaganda and not intellectually honest.

Saying that the Constitution is not relevant to modern society is also a left-wing talking point. The Constitution will always be relevant because it is based on human nature. Today’s society may be different, but human nature has not changed.

I never said that all humans want peace. What I said is that the average person desires a peaceful existence.

There is a dichotomy between some of your views. You say that it is too easy to corrupt people and that the corrupt go for power, but you believe that in an anarchistic society somehow these corrupt people will not try to exploit that system. You also say that the average person it too uninformed for a constitutional system to work, but some how they will understand their role in an anarchistic society and work for community wellness.

There is a reason why there are no anarchistic systems in the world. All of the earliest societies were basically anarchistic, but societies progress from anarchy toward tyranny. It is simply human nature. In another article on this site, Hale lays out how an anarchistic society would be structured. His description is almost identical to the system devised by the U.S. Constitution. The only difference was that he thought that factories and farms should be held in common. That has been tried within our system and failed. Just because their have been abuses and deviations from our Constitution does not mean that the system is inoperable and should be scrapped.
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The constitution is a bunk- a mean joke really, meant to enshrine power held by landed aristocracy in the cloth of liberalism, so that it might be forced upon a population which had been manipulated to support the cause of their slave-owning master class, and the goal of that slave owning master class to sever itself from its legal connections and financial obligations to the government which imbued them with their power in the first place- the British crown.
Allow me to explain.
As any serious student of liberal theory will tell you, the idea of constituitional government arose out of the enlightnemnent, postulated by such prominent thinkers as Kant and JS Mill. The idea goes that at one magical point in history, the first people coalesced into societies, not knowing their class positions prior to the event, and fully unkowing of society in any context. The logic went that God created man in such a configuration that man would have to organize into societies in order to survive, and that class hierarchies and social inequality arose afterwards as manifestations of inherent inferiorities and superiorities among people whom were made “better” and “worse” by the God of Abraham. The idea of the constitutional government was to re-create this imagined process in a modern (18th century) context. That meant that slaves were slaves because god made them to be slaves, Native Americans were made by god to be eradicated by the white man, and that rich folks were chosen by God to be rich, and that poor people were so by only their own fault and the will of the almighty. Among the biggest flaws with this model, the fact that there is no god pales in comparison to the fact that no society ever arranged on constitutional grounds was organized by the people themselves; rather, as enshrined by the constituition itself, and the federalist papers, the “official representatives” of the people, in our case these being the slave-owning master class, the self-described “substantial people” appointed to themselves the power and authority to impose this view on the proliteriat, whom they viewed as a subhuman rabble. The American ‘revolution’ is instructive. The landed, slave-owning master class had a high degree of autonomy from the crown before the revolution: they basically ran the country. And after the revolution, who still ran the country? The very same group, indeed the very same people, owning the same slaves, leveeing the same taxes and oppression as had the King. The only difference was rhetoric. The constitution is not based on human nature, not even slightly, except humanity’s most dark, evil components: avarice, vanity, and racism.

Cosnider this: Power is an accident of history, arising only from the temporary weakness of others. To implement it tells us nothing about the validity of those againt whom it is used, though its use tells us much about the depravity and cruelty of those who would use power for their own advancement. The statement that there are no anarchistic systems in the world, apart from being demonstrably false, is rooted in the idea that if an anarchistic society were viable, a large-scale one should have been able to resist the attempts to destroy it. Such a society exists today in Spain and in many other places (including your own country), still, despite the efforts of 100 years of tyranny and dictatorship to eradicate it. Hitler, Moussolini, Franco, used their power to destroy the revolution in Spain; this tells us nothing about the character of the Spanish revolution, though it tells us that facists, indeed any powerful group or individual, have no compunctions against using astonishing violence and depravity to prevent the slave-class from achieving any meaningful self-determination. Your US government and constitution are NO DIFFERENT in this regard; they use the fullness of their power to preserve the status quo of exploitation of the proliteriat. This tells us nothing about whether or not the proliteriat deserves to be exploited and dominated, but tells us instead that the powerful and influential in this system have a vested interest in making sure that those who are down, STAY down.

And for the record, to say the US has not been an agressor at any point in its history is simply laughable, beyond being demonstrably false. The trail of tears is littered with shredded treaties, and the story of US adventurism in the world is one of bloodshed and pure, unmitigated aggression. Do you know where the word filibuster comes from? Seriously, look it up. The history of that word alone completely destroys your argument. As does US involvement in the Vietnamese Civil War, and the unnecessary, illegal, and deliberate wars-of-choice in Iraq.
Hale - 09 04 10 - 08:07

Furthermore, models I have laid out on this site previously do include federalistic components. This ties in well with comments made earlier in this thread; History shows us how federalist systems have oppressed and destroyed and enslaved much in th same way as have other forms of government. That alone is not enough to completely invalidate federal organization of scale, because a federal-type organization is merely one component of a larger system. To include elements of it is not anethema to non-state organization, though we are wise to remember how states have abused it.
Why are anarchistic societies not focused on money and instead on community? The answer is simple, and two-fold, addressing both. Capitalist, fascits, and state-communist societies are organized on primarily on two operating principles: The authority princimple, or “might makes right”, and “redistribution of wealth”. Yes, your capitalist societies redistribute wealth too: away from those who make it to concetrate it in those who take it. The authority principle is as old as the strong arm and the club, and has ruled “civilized” and “barbaric” societies alike. Redistribution has its root in the development of complex economies of scale and of incipient agriculture, but most importantly, redistribution depends on there being surplusses, and the authority principle is used to determine how these surplusses are distributed. Those with power, those with the ability to mete out force, also make the determination as to how those resources get distributed, and surprise surprise, the powerful make sure to feed themselves first, then their cronies (religion and military) to preserve the system. It is exactly like the mafia, in that the low people have to pay for the protection (tribute, taxes, supplications to the state god, etc) of this system and hope that there’s enough scraps left over to feed them. Oh yeah, and you can’t escape from this racket either because that’s treason, besides which, where else would you go? Would you abandon all you know and love to find a better social contract? Read the dialogue of Socrates and Crito to see what I mean.
Hale - 09 04 10 - 08:58

Anarchist systems are organized on fundamentally different principles. Anarchist societies are arranged on the "organization principle" instead of Authority, and operate based on the "solidarity principle" instead of redistribution or tribute.The organizational principle is that individuals enter into free associations of mutually-beneficial activity at such time of their choosing, and similarly dissolve these associations when prudent. Individuals and communities have always done this, with or without government, because human societies as substantial wholes are entirely dependent upon the successful funcitioning of each and every individual. To maximize the benefit to society from individual participation, the benefit to the individual from society must also be maximized. To this end, the free association of activities within communities must not be restricted by things like taxes, military incursion, ecological mismanagement, and parasitic organizations like governments and religions which do not contribute to the success of society in any meaningful way, being constructed only to serve the interests of the few at the expense of the many. In short, to maximize the organizational efficiency of a society, that society must be geared towards organizational efficiency, rather than something so petty as whose god is best or which government has the best way of exploiting their people. Anarchist societies reject the petty machinations of the exploiters who would, through the pursuit of fallacious logic based in historical innaccuracy and naked prejudice, shackle the people into states of servitude and slavery.
Hale - 09 04 10 - 08:59

"To each according to need, from each according to ability." This is the solidarity principle. And what could be more rational than that? Surely we do not intend to proffer tha a legitimate society will not meet the needs of its people, or expect from them more than they can bear. Beyond this is a much deeper meaning. Human beings are and always have been dependent on one another to survive. It is in our self interest to make sure that those with whom we associate are well served and happy, as it is likewise in their interest to ensure the well being of those around them. Because of our interdependentness, we are bound to our communities by ties deeper and more important than religion or language or idiosyncracy: our success depends on their success, and their success depends on our success.
Hale - 09 04 10 - 09:09

To wit; Anarchist societies are focused on community rather than money because
A) As you understand it, money is an instrument for the transfer of capital, and therfore power, from one group/individual to another. When the capital of a community is held in common, whether that community is one village, one house, or the entire world, there is no need for it to be moved or transferred, because it was never extracted and accumulated from its native source. The extraction of capitalized commodities, be they money information or food, through redistribution and tribute is the result of centuries of exploitation, and their accumulation into one center of power or another is the basis of authoritarian state organization. The state controls the flow of these commodities, as well as maintaining the exclusive right to use force to maintain that control.
B) A non-state society based on solidarity and organization has no use for currency as a means of transferring capital, as capital is tied up in the functionings of the community, rather than being stripped and stolen by greedy tyrants, to be hoarded in tightly controlled accumulations and lorded over. Rather than emphasize the greedy accumulation of personal profits at the expense of your neighbor, the individual in the anarchist society is best served when his interests are as close to equalized with his fellow as possible, and because his fellow shall be likewise motivated, the individual has little incentive to pursue self-aggrandization, since such vanity is counter-productive to the mutually-self-interested goals of the wider association.

To sum, it is not a fantasy. It simply seems fantastic because you have been socialized in a cultural environment which has institutionalized resistance to the advancement of human decency; through their churches and their schools and their propaganda, your state has moulded your mind as a potter would clay, not for your benefit but for the benefit of the state aparatus. No man is so thoroghly enslaved as a man who has been made to believe, falsely, that he is free.
Hale - 09 04 10 - 09:10

Wow, I leave to do reacher so my next steps can be planed carefully and I come back to find THAT! Jeff, allow me to add the following follow up to your criticism of the way I conduced myself in my prior post.

Much of my behaviour before was the result of rushing my response to your originally treatments. I apologize for the counts of misinterpreting your views. I hope you can appreciate that I tried to compress my beliefs on each subject so I could move on in due time. I also hope that you understand, as I am a non American, much of your praise for the constitution is lost on me, I started taking time to research for the sake of trying to understand better. If you desire to continue debating on specific elements of our prior argument now that Hale has added these elements to the argument, I will be more than happy to oblige, however I think it would be better for both of us if this further debate occurred on the basis of one aspect of the original debate at a time.

I would also like to make this clear now… I am a novice both as an Anarchist and as a debater, where as i get the impression you have a fair amount of experience in both debating and the areas you are defending. I therefore hope you can tolerate some stumbling and repetition on my part in both by past post and any that may come.

Awaiting your next response, Jeff, and thanking the help Hale
-Conrad Crypt
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Gentlemen, I love a good debate as much as anyone, but the garrulousness of these posts is making a response too time consuming. I will just say that if one looks at the system set up under the Constitution, I believe that it is as close to an anarchistic system as one can realistically hope to achieve. It has been abused over the last 100-150 years, so it is no longer in its pure form. Focusing on the flaws of the people that wrote it or the historical context is irrelevant. What is important is the system itself. If one believes that the Constitution is bunk, then that person also believes that anarchy theory is bunk. I could debate Hale for many hours on some of his assertions, but I really did not come here to start a new hobby. I thank you for a fine debate. This is an enjoyable web site, and I will visit again, Jeff
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Anarchy as a collective social organization of like minded individuals, where complete equality is upheld by the collective, is possible, But not in the traditional myth of anarchism, especially among some well educated individuals, who realize that majority decisions of the collective would rule. Take for instance a case of killing and or mistreatment of one individual by another, some sort of rule would need to be upheld. This is where law would come into contradiction with traditional anarchy. In a case of mistreatment of one individual to another, the collective would most likely act as a form of law enforcement, enforcing a decision made by majority rule, (this in itself contradicts anarchy) to execute a ban on the individual who committed the act of mistreatment, from the society. And in the case where a simple oral ban would not suffice, (say the individual will not leave quietly) forceful removal from the society would most likely be implemented. Therefore making the “Anarchist Society” not very anarchist at all. Even though no individual would be pushing their ideals or beliefs on another, in a case like that, imposing a collective’s ideals onto the convicted individual would be unavoidable. How then can true pure anarchy exist? Will the collective society just sit by and allow the individual to commit those acts? Which is then allowing him to impose his will on another individual. Where is the line? And even then if there is a line, isn’t that in itself not anarchy???
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jrichy, your mistake seemst to lie in a misinterpritation of what Anarchy means. It mearly means without a human ruler in controll of the society. THe situation you described, where a person who commits a rongfull act, say theft, the indevidual at fault for the crime SHOULD be austrised and forcfully removed from the society harmed by the act. This is how things would work in a society run by anarchy in the absence of police. I hope I helped cleared up your mistake.

-Comrad Crypt
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on a lighter note: you people type a lot.

Anyways, I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said (in more intelligent language and description), but why should a piece of paper written 200 years ago to tell me that I have freedom of speech? How come this paper only recently extended such "given" rights to minorities? Also, some people tend to forget that our government puts WAY too much power into corporate America. ALMOST everything done by america since the 20s has been in intrest of those few CEOs, not the millions of citizens. Also, Jeff, I do agree. This was an enjoyable debate to read. Surely more enjoyable than that FUCK guy who did nothing other than spam.
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