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No Gods, No Masters!

13 03 09 - 10:05

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Some seven million years ago, a distant relative of the Chimpanzee named australopothecus ramidus stood up,
and began its descendants on the journey that would culminate in our modern day. The descendants of this
hominoid eventually found need to explain to one another how the world worked, and so was religion born.
It started off simply enough--- spirits, demons, sorcerers, magic, etc. As time went on, superstitions became
more and more codified and traditional, regimented by rules and standards passed from holy man to holy man.
These superstitions, often based upon or containing useful information such as the migration patterns of game
animals, were held in high regard and those who knew them were afforded certain privelidges in order to preserve
that knowledge. As time went on, these superstitions often became the justification and basis for ethical systems.
More than explaining why the rains came, more than explaining why herb X cures ailment Y, peoples began to
expect their shaman to explain why bad things happened to good people, what is right and what is wrong, what
happens when we die, and so on and so on. Thus was God invented, to answer the legion of questions that
curious human beings had come up with, long before science could show them the true answers.

One might be inclined to say that based upon this utility, the fallacy of Gods might be justified; for after all,
what harm can there be in convincing a man of the fundamental good of humanity? Surely, the charitable works
of religions excuse them from the wrong inherent in their character. However, fallacy is, in this case,
the appropriate term.

A brief word on logic: an argument is traditionally divided three ways. First, there is the premise, which is the
assumption or idea which is being tested. Then you have the support, which is the evidence which positively
or negatively indicates the validity of the premise; then you have the conclusion, or deduction, which is what
was learned about the premise through investigation. When one follows through on false premises with the
intention, tacit or otherwise, of proving them true, it is then called a fallacy.

Whenever one considers religions, it is very important to remember that virtually all conclusions derived from
religious thought are fallacious. They are based on the false premise that there is a God. Religious organizations,
whether they venerate Jesus or Muhammed, Rama or Bhudda, Thor or Zeus, are dependant upon the assumption
that such entities exist. They do not.

Let us be clear: The reality is that there is no God, of any type.
There never has been a god, there never will be a god.

Some defend religion based on ethical grounds; that religion instills in men a sort of ethical framework,
even in men who might not characteristically seek to act ethically. Bearing this presumption in mind,
please consider the following quote from Aristotle: "I have gained this by philosophy: That I do without
being commanded that which others only do from fear of the law."

Following, let us have a brief example of the ethical implications of religion.
An atheist and a muslim walk into a neutral charity. Let's say that both men are equally good and generous
and kind. The Muslim is motivated variously by his personality and the teachings of his religion. He wants to
give because 1: His religion teaches him to do so. 2: By doing so, he believes that he might be saving the
souls of those he helps. 3: By doing so, he believes that he is securing his own place in heaven. 4: By giving,
he could seek to convert others to his religion. 5: Finally, he seeks improve the general state of mankind.

The Atheist, on the other hand, 1: Is not obligated to give; he does because he wants to. 2: The Atheist does
not believe in souls, nor in saving them. 3: The Atheist does not believe in heaven, and does not seek to secure
its favor. 4: The Atheist does not seek to influence others to atheism.
5: He seeks to improve the general state of mankind.

The ultimate difference between them is that the muslim (for this example it could just as easily be any
other religion) has been incentivized for his action. He has been bribed with the promise of heaven, or
perhaps threatened by the fires of hell. He is not doing good, even if that is the result of his action,
because his motivation is flawed and ultimately selfish. Yes, the ultimate goal is to improve the general
state of mankind, and this might even be effected. But it is not genuine, because a truly good person
would seek to improve the general state of mankind out of genuine kindness, not out of fear of hell or
of god; not for the sake of advancing one agenda or the other, and certainly not for the sake of
glory to a fictitious god.

The Atheist, in this example, cuts a swath through the chaffe of religious superstition and skips directly
to the real ethical disposition of mankind; which is to the general improvement of the state of mankind, l
ocally and globally. If a man is educated properly, he will not need to be made to fear religious law in order
to achieve goodness in his actions; he will do good things because he recognizes them internally as being
good and worthwhile, and because the nature of mankind is altruistic.

Religion presents major problems for those of us who seek to bring about positive change in society,
particularly those of us who seek to promote eaglitarianism, and even more particularly those of us who
seek to establish uncompromised liberty. Religion is truly ancient, indeed it is older than mankind as we
know it today. Human ancestors practiced veneration of the dead and ceremonial burial for many hundreds
of thousands, perhaps millions, of years before present; long indeed before modern humans evolved to their
present form. Ancient as it is, religion is not as old as the Authority Principle.

In a nutshell, the Authority Principle can be said as "Might Makes Right". The Ape with the biggest club
and the strongest arm wins, and rules society as the venerable king; so long as he remains the strongest
ape. Such a system does not long last and seldom affords any stability. In this system, constant warfare
and strife prevent a king from solidifying his power, and as we know a people whipped will not wait long
before rebellion.

Force is not enough for tyrants to maintain their power. Despots employ religion to justify their power,
and to make sure that the many continue to serve the few. The ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians
were ruled by God-Kings, who were worshipped as Gods themselves. And who among men would resist the
dictums of a god? The Medieval Europeans looked to the Pope, who was (is?) the infallible voice of God himself.
And who among men would resist the dictums of god, spoken through the Pope? Notably, another name for
the Pope is "The King Maker". Thus religion ingratiates itself to the ruling establishment, which in turn makes
certain that the current religious establishment continues and retains primacy. Thus the few rule the many.
Please consider this passage from the book Deuterotomy:

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

The potter is god, and we are the clay. The moral? Some people are better than others, and these people
have been mandated by god, who has made them intrinsically better, to rule over the rest. To rule, with
impunity, over the rest of us, whom god has not made so well. And should we the rabble masses of people
get the erroneous idea in our heads that we are deserving of the same rights as anyone else, we can be
assured of our passage to hell.
And furthermore, if one worries about injustice in this life, one need worry not! All that one has to do is
suffer the indignation, and turn the other cheek, and allow oneself to be exploited and oppressed in life,
and one will be rewarded in the life after this with paradise! All are equal in death.

If we are to profess ourselves as men without masters, free and emancipated workers, then we must also
reject the most pernicious master, that of superstition! If we are to be free of masters, we *must* be
free of gods as well, for it is those gods and those who worship them that have established the legitimacy
of the inequality in our society! I say live free, live good, and live you lives with *No Gods and No Masters!*


Hale
123 comments

Correction: The name is “Ardipithecus Ramidus”, not “Australopithecus Ramidus”
Hale - 13 03 09 - 10:40

I’m not sure if you have even dealt with things you can’t see or touch.

Sorry if i’m coming off a little rude, and i really don’t mean to, but i think some of you guys are looking at this from just one point of view.
And I detest closed minds.
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 12:38

bravo
religious ppl are like pot smokers, there both apathetic for doing anything to change society for the better
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 12:47

how so blak-toothgrin?
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 12:48

Well, Some people become atheist because they think spirituality is a load of bollocks,
but they never took time to see why people actually believe in the after-life.

Therefore that makes them pretty hypocritical as well because they say religious people are closed minded.
And yeah i know some people are blind believers, but that doesn’t mean we all are.
And it’s cool if your atheist and all, but don’t talk shit about something you haven’t explored.
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 13:12

i used to be a serious christian, and then i actually thought about it by myself for awhile , and i notcied that all the shit they tell you is to good to be true, and i have many christian friends, i dont shit on them for there belief, so ive walked both lines, and chose my path
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 13:46

dissregard what i said b 4 about thwee whole potsmokers thing, i said without really thinking
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 13:47

Yeah, another reason why some people become atheist is all the damn rules, i never really got the point of them myself.
that’s why i’m not like some full blown jesus freak, but i am in touch with myself spiritually.
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 14:50

yeah but theres many forms of christianity that dont have those rules
those i respect, they also tend to be smaller churches
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 15:09

Yeah, well as interesting as this conversation is, i find it irrelevant to freedom and anarchy,
seeing that people can believe in what ever the hell they want.
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 16:01

yeah it really is actually
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 16:06

Well I don’t think we should try and convert people
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 16:33

yea, sorry if what i said b4 sounded like i was disagreeing with u, i was actually agreeing with u
and yeah we really shouldlnt,its the exact opposite of what were all about
[nick] () - 13 03 09 - 16:59

Totally
Blak-Toothgrin - 13 03 09 - 17:16

the proletariat wallows in the mire of its own self loathing – breeding the apathy that has cleverly held up, and perpetuated the god concept, in spite of premise/validity logic, never mind the scientific method. never mind evolution!! atheism is also a concept, but one that facilitates benevolence on our own terms – good for goodness sake. unfortunately, as a concept, it does not provide an effective precedent. truly, it does, but not to a person of ‘faith’. As a result, the second rate rabble mass (haha) will cling to their bibles and qu’rans, out of faith, in order to circumvent any kind of thought process.

i think that the rabble mass is prone to wallowing when their is no precedent – in fact, whether god exists or not is a moot point, they have created gods, and validate the god actions in their everyday lives.

i wonder if anarchism provides an effective precedent. one powerful enough to inspire the individual for their own sake.
ummichas () - 13 03 09 - 23:24

the problem is not spirituality the problem is RELIGION as a power structure religious institutions work in the same way the State works they have the same traits many people don’t understand that the so called “holy books” themselves are nothing but a manipulation tactic i don’t really care who you pray too but when your religion intervenes in my society then i will fuck you up i personally i am sick of these “Christian Conservatives “ giving Christian morale and stuff from when politics and religion are togheter ?? i thought we are living in a secular world PLUS religion , race , ethnicity and all other social constructs are just a tactic called DIVIDE AND CONQUER it’s simple to control and manipulate people when they are divided
Menace - 14 03 09 - 00:01

So the problem is not necessarily what people believe,
but the control the religious institutions have over the people.

If I’m reading you correctly menace.
Blak-Toothgrin - 14 03 09 - 10:30

Oh, and menace seeing how your a rap guy, i think you’ll love zearle.
http://www.zearle.com/subpages/goldtrack..

He’s a rapper and an anarchist.
All his music is free.
He’s also famous in the hacking scene for his song “hackers and crackers”
Check him out man.
Blak-Toothgrin - 14 03 09 - 14:10

yes man the state sparkled from the church all this came from theocracies it was a time when Church and State was inseparable religious institutionalization gave birth to the State check the ancient times the State and the Church what ever kind she is it must be brought down and de-institutionalize and ohh ok man i will check him out
Menace - 14 03 09 - 14:44

God = A obviouse possibility.

Religion = An obviouse man made set of conduct, law and restriction.

Jesus = A radical activist

Religious Leaders = Radical conservative ( mostly ) oppressors

I think the idea of a God can never be ruled out but I think it is as easy to see as darkness to a blind man that religion is completely man made. The two should never have even been put together in a seriouse notion. The Bible is in many ways just like the old fiction book that hitler fallowd “ The Comming Race “. The fallows of that book took it just as seriously as the people who fallow the Bible take the Bible and both have done a tremendious amount of harm, as should be expected when one gets passionate about something that can never be proven and proposes its idealogy to be forced down the throats of the real world.

The Bible is overwhelmingly contradictive and writen in such a way that most of the people who fallow it would probably not understand it in depth, lacking the same comprehension they would need to understand William Shakespears writings. The average man/women does not understand William Shakespear yet the majority of men/women believe they understand the bible. Both of these writings are writen with a common complicated structure.
A.C. Joker (URL) - 14 03 09 - 19:49

Good point joker.

You know i don’t see why people have the urge to dominate and control rather than give
and share and make a perfect place for our children to grow.
We let sadist’s control religion, politics, and our lives and people actually take it
and think it’s a good thing.

“The devil is not as horrid as the devil’s advocate”
Blak-Toothgrin - 14 03 09 - 23:53

I find that there is no “God” per say. Instead, there is a higher being that created the universe that we know, and is allowing things to go as they may. God, in this form, is the clock maker. (S)he creates this intricate device, wines it up, and let’s it do it’s thing until the bitter end. The whole concept of an afterlife is something we will never know and can never know until we die. There is no point behind thinking about the afterlife as all ponderance is in complete and total vain.

All organized religion today is based on texts and scriptures that relate to social philosophies and attempt to enlighten the human race to create a more perfect harmonious creature. Unfortunately, organized religions are not viewed in this light, and are used by individuals who are in the position of power to manipulate and corrupt the government. De-centralizing organized religions to be a community level and only a community level organization would more fully ensure that the philosophies in the religious texts would be comprehended more completely by the those who wish to follow.
[Psycho Sean] (URL) - 14 03 09 - 23:55

einstein believed in god, he mentioned that god is not playing any chances,
he said all he wanted was to know gods thoughts…
now who are you to dare believe all is by chance, certainly not intellegent or coherent…
you are implying nothing by atheism…
mario - 15 03 09 - 00:43

Psycho Sean
There is an after life, I haven’t experienced any being from heaven or hell that i know of, nor have i experienced
a negative being, but they’re around us all the time.
Any one can contact the ones that have passed on.

Now i wouldn’t consider summoning spirits or demons.
Not only is it dangerous but to my knowledge it is quiet a naughty thing in the eyes of god.

But if anybody want’s to explore this more, don’t use occult tools like ouija boards, pendulums,
dowsing rods, spells, oracles, or anything of the sort. See most of these are divination tools that in the wrong
hands (or inexperienced) can open door ways or allow a spirit or demon to enter the diviner himself.
If you would like to know more, JUST ASK!

I hope this doesn’t make me sound crazy or anything. :)
Blak-Toothgrin - 15 03 09 - 01:30

Blak-Toothgrin,

I don’t think any of that makes you sound crazy, but I feel you are definitely coming from a very strong Judeo-Christian background when you make those claims, especially the ideas of “the occult” being evil and wrong. I find that it is completely subjective and “evil” is a word that is passed around in religion when fundamental ideologies are disagreed with.

I used to be a devout Catholic, but I’m not, if that’s not obvious. =-)
[Psycho Sean] (URL) - 15 03 09 - 10:12

Blak-Toothgrin :

yeah it doesnt make you sound crazy. I did the ghost hunting thing for years and I can tell you its not hard to gather evidence of spiritual activity. I bet anyone reading this who doesnt believe in it would believe in it if they went to a place with high levels of activity, lucky for me I grew up with it. I have no doubts of an after life but I dont really believe in a heaven or a hell ( at least not in the stereotypical sense )
A.C. Joker () (URL) - 15 03 09 - 12:08

When you go out looking for spirits already sure you’ll find them, it greatly increases your chances of convincing yourself that you have. Hunters in North America have a fun little prank- they call it snipe hunting. They send out rookie hunters in search of a ‘snipe’ which is usually described vaguely as being small and brown. The rookie hunter will go out looking for this thing, for hours, until he either gives up, or is told that there is no such thing. But every now and again, the rookie will come back with something he thinks is a snipe. But it never is a snipe. There are no snipes. At least not in north america (as far as I know- and I’ve looked!). Just because you don’t fully understand something doesn’t make it supernatural, and just because something’s outside your understanding doesn’t mean that it’s beyond understanding altogether.
That Guy - 15 03 09 - 12:26

Psycho Sean-
I didn’t really say the occult was “evil” but summoning demons and spirits is a pretty dangerous thing whether you know how to do it or not.
Especially using ouija boards, a lot of danger can come from that little piece of wood.
And nah i’m not judeo-christian, nor do i have a judeo-christian view point.

Joker-
Yeah same with me, my neighbor has a house with high activity.
Everyone who’s stayed in that house has had some kind of an encounter.

That Guy-
Snipes!
cool little story.
Blak-Toothgrin - 15 03 09 - 13:43

Well, I find this blog quite interesting.
We have created a rather small forum community
and are looking to increase the membership.
“Http://katanarchy@aimoo.com“:Http://katanarchy@aimoo.com
Tearful_Screams (URL) - 15 03 09 - 13:57

Blak-toothgrin

I don’t believe in demons, angels, or spirits of any sort. Sorry for assuming you might have come from a judeo-christian pov but I was just going on the information I had gathered from your arguments.
[Psycho Sean] (URL) - 15 03 09 - 16:11

Here’s a quote from A.C. Joker:

[quote]

God = A obviouse possibility.

Religion = An obviouse man made set of conduct, law and restriction.

Jesus = A radical activist

Religious Leaders = Radical conservative ( mostly ) oppressors

I think the idea of a God can never be ruled out but I think it is as easy to see as darkness to a blind man that religion is completely man made. The two should never have even been put together in a seriouse notion. The Bible is in many ways just like the old fiction book that hitler fallowd “ The Comming Race “. The fallows of that book took it just as seriously as the people who fallow the Bible take the Bible and both have done a tremendious amount of harm, as should be expected when one gets passionate about something that can never be proven and proposes its idealogy to be forced down the throats of the real world.

The Bible is overwhelmingly contradictive and writen in such a way that most of the people who fallow it would probably not understand it in depth, lacking the same comprehension they would need to understand William Shakespears writings. The average man/women does not understand William Shakespear yet the majority of men/women believe they understand the bible. Both of these writings are writen with a common complicated structure.
A.C. Joker (URL) – 14 03 09 – 19:49

[/end quote]

The arrogance people have amazes me, not only due to their closed minds but also because their intelligence is shown for what it is: nonexistent, when they can’t spell simple words correctly.

The one thing I detest about anarchism is that the people it tends to attract usually aren’t the brightest. This, of course, is not a direct portrayal of anarchy, but just an observation.

I think that before we bash our government and our current society, we take a look at what WE ALL have to offer… more often than not, inexperience, arrogance, hope rather than reality, and above all the inability to react to make a difference.

Albeit there are many things that irritate me about your post, the one that really stands out is the comment you made about the Bible being regarded as an old fiction book. Historians have regarded the bible as one of the most accurate resources we have in regards to history, more so than any textbook or ancient writing we have to date.

From what I have learned in my lifetime, I know that there is no substitute for knowledge and experience. I think that everybody on this forum should look at all the facts before making judgments about subjects they obviously have no background in. Inexperience is something only the experienced can comment on, because they are the only ones who see it!

Come on now, and everybody expects anarchy to work?
Stan () - 15 03 09 - 17:15

In case anybody didn’t have a clue about what I was writing about, the point of my post was to do your RESEARCH before posting pointless and opinionated writings across a website that is trying to better mankind, not destroy it by having a closed mind.
Stan () - 15 03 09 - 17:17

stan-
I have the same problem with people stan.
Some people just never look at both sides of the story.
And don’t be so harsh on people who make grammar errors.

psycho sean-
it’s cool.
Blak-Toothgrin - 15 03 09 - 17:55

HAHA, yeah the bible is accurate. its holier than swiss cheese. stan, you have got to be kidding me. what, exactly, is it more accurate than? i mean, this is a can of worms. the whole problem with the bible is that it cannot be verified. Its the basis of faith – you must have faith that it is true. that is the primary abdication of freedom regarding the bible, in my opinion. please take the words of historians with a pillar of salt. bishop ireneaus composed the 52 book canon that christians worship around 200 ce, and burned the rest, the so called gnostic writings (stuff that is showing up again – like dead sea scrolls, nag hammadi library type stuff). yeah, thats a real objective place to start.

What exactly have historians claimed the bible is accurate about?? how the universe was created? flooding? garden of eden? jesus? as previously mentioned, reasoning along a false premise is at the heart of fallacy.

i’m sorry mario, please refer to the piece about logic in the preamble about fallacy. einstein referred to the god concept constantly, in order to create a simile, to facilitate the understanding of his unified field theory. The beauty of the universe is that there is no chance. everything happens b/c something occurred prior. something has always been happening, and logic, science says that it was not god. if you want to talk about science, that would be great!
ummichas () - 16 03 09 - 06:27

I think what Stan was trying to convey, Ummichas, is that the Bible is widely regarded as historically important due to the fact that few documents from antiquity have survived for as long as has the Bible. The same is true for many religious texts. Though factually they are dubious at best, most of the few documents that ancient man made have not survived to the present day, even in highly adulterated forms.
Hale - 16 03 09 - 08:19

in the First Council of Nicaea they excluded many scrolls that didn’t fit the Churches agenda overrating the Bible as being highly historical accurate or even highly historical is foolish one doesn’t understand Anarchism or the power structure of the Church if he defends it
Menace - 16 03 09 - 10:06

Wow ummichas, since you know everything about the universe and science, would enlighten us all and tell us how the 1st Law of Thermodynamics relates to your statement? What was prior to the beginning? What created it all? Can everything really have a cause and flow perfectly if all the matter in the universe is becoming more and more stable? What happens at the end?

I hate when people base their ideas off of someone like Einstein. You agree with what he’s saying without knowing the things he knew. It seems like a good idea or a good reason, but how do YOU know? How do you know, for certain, that there is or is not a god? To throw out your ideas so wildly it makes you seem so confident, that you might just hold a position in a place that mattered… say the science field?

Judging from my experience with both my background and my view of your presentation of yourself, I’d judge that you’re still a student. A student with wild ideas nonetheless.

One can believe in God and be an anarchist, so to call religion stupid is immature. Church structure and belief are different.

I base my views on circumstance and mathamatics. Research protein synthesis, and the probability of life forming. There must be intelligent design. Life is too perfect and evolution takes too much time to work efficiently and great enough to create life.

By the way, considering we slander our American textbooks with filth about Columbus discovering America and how the white man conquered America is more filth than reading the history of the Bible. Look up the Israelites, ancient architecture, construction. All of that holds more credit than our country does, don’t you agree?

I feel that anarchism can’t work, for the mere fact that the people who are trying to support it are fighting amonst one another. Man is evil. Man is a sinner. The Bible states this and I happen to believe it. To believe that mankind would come together is ridiculous.

I’m starting to see the world for what it really is. Go do a deployment and then come talk to me about God. It’s easy to think and type and argue over the internet, but when the shit hits the fan and you’re life could end in a matter of seconds, you think differently.

But that’s our problem with society today, right? Not enough experience? The leaders of our country have never been to combat, they have never seen the casualties of war, and yet they push young and innocent men and women to fight for their profit.

How do we know that we have nothing more to learn?
Stan () - 16 03 09 - 10:58

I apologize for that post as there is no flow or organization to it. This is what the Army is doing to me; destroying me. I am losing myself and my intelligence. But I sometimes wonder if it’s worth it, just to know I’ve seen everything.

Experience can’t be taught.
Stan () - 16 03 09 - 11:00

For my third and final post for this evening (I say evening at 1400 because I have been up for 3 days… not easy) I would also like to point you towards what religion is trying to accomplish. Not everybody who is religious is a greedy catholic priest.

Take a look at Luthern, or Baptist. Their teachings are to spread the word of god, not to accumulate material wealth for selfish reasons, and that no matter what you do on this earth as long as you believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins you will be saved, come murderer or bum.

Now, if the world operated more like how Christianity is supposed to be, I think we would be in a much better place. But it is all theory, just like communism, and as of now, anarchism.
Stan () - 16 03 09 - 11:07

Stand instead of reading the Bible all day start reading some Bakunin , Kropotkin , Proudhon , i don’t even understand how a self proclaimed anarchist brings anarchist myths at the table 1. you bring the myth of the “human nature “ 2 you say it’s just a theory well it wasn’t just a theory between 1936-1939 in Spain or for 2 centuries in the Israeli Kibbutz you put everything in a corner and you ignore the bigger picture i think you are just very confused you need really to lay back and do heavy study on anarchism that’s my advice
Menace - 16 03 09 - 13:48

For the life of me, I can’t figure out how posts like this aid the anarchist cause. Are you serious? Another atheist rant? Yep … this’ll really go a long way to drawing people into the fold. Let’s call Christianity, religion, and/or theism in general stupid and deluded. Yes, this will finally open people’s eyes … yes, now they’ll see the light. Finally, they’ll become anarchists too and lay down those ancient superstitions.

This is the one component of anarchism and leftism in general that automatically drives people away in droves … and yet here it is again. Nice job … you’ve just alienated a bunch of people from the broader message. Good for you.

Eh … who gives a shit that Romero stared capitalist pigs in the eyes and paid the ultimate price? Who gives a shit that the Dorothy Day began the broadest anarchist network in the world? Who gives a shit that Christianity has given us a huge amount of anti-capitalist (and anti-communist) literature and thinkers. We don’t need to think about Aquinas’ rants against “interest.” We’re atheists … religion is stupid, practiced by stupid people. We’re smart; we’re anarchists. Screw religion … go piss up a rope religious people: anarchism isn’t for you b/c your stupid.
GAWD () - 16 03 09 - 14:44

I believe in a God. I am an Anarchist.

I was raised a Roman Catholic, but I do not belong to any specific religion. I believe what I want to believe. I do not agree with you that all Christians are corrupt. I have met many young catholics at the World Youth Days (2003 and 2008) and they are incredible kids. None of them are capitalists pigs seeking the ruin and corruption of society. They are happy.

How can we have a successful anarchist society if I cannot believe in my religion? I am then being forced to do something I don’t want to do.

Why can’t you just except the fact that some people believe in a higher power? Let’s just get along and deal with it. I don’t care what you believe in. I will let you do what you want, if you let me do the same. That’s how peace is made. It is not made with angry rants and hateful comments.
Pax () - 16 03 09 - 16:21

1)
I thought this post was about how we should stop the religious institutions from having mass control over the people, not about people’s personal beliefs.

2)
THIS IS MY VERY FIRST POST RUNNING UBUNTU LINUX!
YAHHH! ME!

3)
Hello stan, hope your doing well man.
Blak-Toothgrin - 16 03 09 - 17:51

Hello Stan, nice to hear from you again.
Religion is a serious subject, and frank discussions about it generally tend towards the divisive. Many important Anarchist thinkers throughout the history of the movement have been atheists, for reasons which I attempted to communicate. I do hold those notions to be true. It is certainly the reader’s right to disagree, and it is certainly within my rights to express my beliefs on the subject, particularly as they relate to Anarchism.
Gawd, it is a concern of mine that the divisve nature of theology has a great potentiality to drive people from the cause of Anarchism. This is the fundamental purpose of organized religion in a state aparatus, which is to maintain the status quo and establish the legitimacy of current ideological and political power schemes. Their purpose is to drive people away from radical lines of thought and to ensure their submission. The unfortunate reality, as I perceive it based on my own education and experience, is that state power and organized religions are part and parcel with one another in by far the majority of instances. Religious institutions are critical in the network of doctrinal sytesms used by the powerful few to ensure their continued rule over the many. Importantly, these doctrinal systems influence either side of the power divide equally. These doctrinal systems emphasize certain behaviors, views, and attitudes in one class and different behaviors, views, and attitudes in another. The result of this is dichotomy in influence and education and a difference in attitudes which reflects the existing power structure and perpetuates that structure into the future;
specifically, those attitudes are among the wealthy and powerful self-righteousness and entitlement, a feeling of superiority which obligates them to rule and liberates them from consicousness of the luxury of their lives in light of the misery suffered by others which is required to maintain their lifestyle.
For the unpowerful, the attitudes emphasized become anguish and defeat, misery and self doubt; a dejection toward the worhtless nature of sinful man, a feeling of powerlessness in the face of greater powers than the self. Attitudes which steer a man to obedient servitude to the almighty, and whosoever might speak in his name. A man, born free, tought to be a servant. These are ideas featured prominently in very important, core literature to our movement.

My views on atheism are rooted in science, and I feel that it is appropriate here to say that discussion of scientific matters might be better placed on forums of different topical emphasis than this.
[Hale] - 16 03 09 - 18:49

I thought anarchy was a proponent of autonomous, independent beliefs. I thought it was about freeing the individual. If someone chooses to believe in a god by their own free will (regardless of whether the belief is part of an institutionalized religion), shouldn’t that be regarded in the same light as someone who chooses not to believe in a god?

On a side note, I’m not qualified to comment on the history lesson, but I think revisionist history has been just as damning as institutionalized religion.
Troy - 17 03 09 - 00:17

To all: Nothing is impossible only highly improbable. I read a book on quantum physics once, the title was Alice in Quantum Land. One point that was made was that you could take a pile of bricks, throw them into the air and they would land just right to form a house. (Not impossible, just highly improbable) Hale, Einsteins views were backed by science and went a little something like this…
The human make up is primarily composed of energy. Law of physics states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only change shape and form. Thus there had to be a point of origin, whether it be a mass of energy that always was or a higher power.
Personally I feel that the human species is too primal yet to gain a full comprehension of what the truth is. Whether or not I am agnostic is not the point. The point that I am trying to make is that all i know is what I have experienced in life and nothing more. I am a realist. Show me the proof.
Organized religion has failed miserably in its attempt to sway me. Evolution has compelled me yet I still ponder the eternal question of “if that is so, where did that originate from…and if so , where did that originate from, then where did that originate from, and so on. Being a species that cannot co exist with each other simply because of different point of views seriously makes me feel that we are either doomed as a species or have not even begun to scratch the surface of our next evolutionary state.
A.O.C. - 17 03 09 - 00:53

I think to many people are thinking about it to hard
Blak-toothgrin - 17 03 09 - 00:57

I personally am an agnostic so i don’t really care about this big questions of why and how i only care about the welfare of the human race one thing i know institutionalized religion has the same power structure as the State so inherently you as a anarchist are against it end of the deal
Menace - 17 03 09 - 02:57

If anarchism opposes the formation of rules, how can an anarchist rationalize a rule that prohibits participation in an institutionalized religion? Following that line of thought, the only end of anarchy is primitivism.
Troy - 17 03 09 - 03:30

troy-
Anarchism doesn’t necessarily oppose the formation of rules, but the formation of government.
And we won’t prohibit people from practicing religion, we just don’t like when someone tries to control others and profit off them.
Blak-Toothgrin - 17 03 09 - 04:36

I’m actually curious about this. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate. I’ve probably had some misconceptions about anarchistic social organization and the objectives of the movement.

Are there laws? Are they based on the social contract, natural law, equity? If it advocates for complete autonomy, then I don’t understand why people would be prohibited from participating in institutionalized practices if they chose to. The key word being chose.

One of the problems I’ve had with anarchism (again, possibly a misconception) is that it seems too focussed on individuals within the movement and fails to address the bigger picture: how to mold a world that people (the masses) WANT to live in.

Another problem I have is more strategic. The movement needs to evaluate how to proceed step-by-step. Rather than opposing government, the movement should solely narrow its sights on the banking world. A powerful banking industry with weakened government is far more dangerous than a powerful government with a mired banking industry. A step-by-step process would allow the movement to measure progress in intervals, analyze where efforts need to be directed and redirected, and, ultimately, recruit new members from increased notoriety. Is the movement making progress?
Troy - 17 03 09 - 06:55

I’m glad that you’ve brought this up, Troy.
The whole idea of Anarchism is to foster the development of mankind, and this is a chieved by the creation of universal political and economic equality; and through individual endeavor within this setting, the individual becomes the base component of society, operating its mechanisms as he is best able and best fits his tastes, and recieving accordingly to his needs. This mutually beneficial arrangement manifests itself through a complicated network of inter-dependant and inter-changeable free associations between individuals and those associations. The idea is to replace dogmatic, de-humanizing institutions which have a tendency to create hegemonies and preserve themselves even after such time as their continued function becomes an impediment and a detriment to individuals and society at large. Replace them with libertine, free associations based upon the confluence of mutually self-interested individuals collaborating and cooperating for shared goals; resembling trades unions, these free associations can be very large and very small, very general in function as well as very specific. They vary based upon the nature of the work to be done and the nature of the people performing them.
To say that anarchism would require atheism of individuals is preposterous; such is precluded by the very nature of anarchism. The only requirements of an individual is that he live his life as best as he can, be the best person that he can be, and to help others when he can, or at least to do no harm. Such is the truer manifestation of human nature, not this miserably oppressed existence all mankind suffers in varying degrees. Man is not cruel nor callous, not unvirtuous and not monstrous. He is only those things when circumstance requires it of him, and it is the practice of hierarchical and authoritarian power structures to manipulate that fact and drive men to the most ghastly, unspeakable acts of horror and atrocity. The purpose of Anarchism is to contradict that, and to facilitate the construction of a condition of genuine liberty and equality, so that no longer will one man rule over another and command evil in the name of petty, meaningless things like wealth and power. No longer will the few in number profit in power and treasure from their exploitation of the masses. No longer will man be forced to be his own tormentor. The scourge of tyranny will be lifted, and the world and all who dwell there shall heave a tremendous sigh of relief.

Troy, and everyone here: I reccomend reading up on Peter Kropotkin’s work on worker self-management. He’s an excellent read on the subject, being one of its pioneers.
[Hale] - 17 03 09 - 10:46

What’s everyone waiting for.. when are the blogs going to stop and the action start? By the time everyone’s through sitting around working out the kinks through discussions on the internet the government is going to have an ip address of every supposed anarchist, and will probably be heavily monitored.
Luke - 17 03 09 - 15:38

One word, PROXY.
Blak-Toothgrin - 17 03 09 - 16:11

“Religion is for people who don’t want to go to hell.

Spirituality is for people who don’t want to go back.”
[Vader] () - 17 03 09 - 17:17

Vader, I think your views are a little messed up on the subject.
Blak-Toothgrin - 17 03 09 - 18:49

we need to have an anarchist revolution in america i have started a group called the a.l.f. or the american liberation front we need to stop taling and actually do something for once seriously we will acheive nothing by sitting at home on the computer everyday checking this website we need to become active and fight for our freedom comrades!
jon () - 17 03 09 - 19:21

You know we don’t just sit here all day looking at this website dude.
I take that as an insult dude.
A lot of us have done quiet a bit out in the real world.

And whats your plan for this liberation front, do you have any backing?
Blak-Toothgrin - 17 03 09 - 22:34

Hale good recommendation i see here on this website we got anarchists here that don’t have an idea about anarchism as i told that to Stan before jumping to conclusions about anarchism read some Bakunin or something i would advice A.O.C to make a section on this site whit the Anarchist FAQ or if its possible on the Library section put books about anarchism on PDF or other formats so people can download them
Menace - 18 03 09 - 08:03

Hale,

Thanks for the response. I’m not familiar with Kropotkin. I’ll have to read him sometime. It’s hard for me to separate the communism ideals from the anarchist ideals, but I’ll to make a comment on liberty.

People are free. I don’t see how that can be disputed. HOWEVER, there are too many influences that people take with a grain of salt: advertising, news outlets, television programming, books, magazines, education, religion… . These influences affect how people think and act. What’s troubling is that many people don’t realize that all interactions are biased. People allow their opinions to be formed around a slew of half-truths. This is an attack on liberty, but people are free to resist it. What I fear isn’t the government taking our liberty by force. I fear the masses voluntarily giving it up. That’s a very different problem.

To Menace,

One of the difficulties with understanding anarchy is that there doesn’t seem to be consensus within the group as to how anarchist societies function. The communist references are interesting because communist efforts around the world have usually resulted in larger, more powerful, more corrupt governments. Not the reverse. I had never made the anarchist-communist connection before.

PDF books are a good idea.
Troy - 18 03 09 - 10:12

there is no affinity between any kind of Marxism and Anarchism indeed they are similar traits in fact we have similar traits whit Libertarian Conservatives or Anarcho-Capitalists but we don’t really have nothing to do whit either of them a quote by Bakunin goes like this “ the Red bureaucracy that would institute the worst of all despotic governments “ this quote was aimed at Marx in the long feud between Bakunin one of the fathers of Anarchism and Marx the major split between Anarchists and Marxists occurred when Bakunin and other anarchists were kicked out by Marx from the 1 international in a whole we were kicked out because we called Marx and his followers authoritarians if you want to plead on the connection between us and Marxists you must understand that the fall of Marxism is a win for Anarchism cause in this 200 years everything Anarchists foretold became true ohh by the way i have on PDF format a book called Marxism , Freedom and The State By Bakunin give me a email and i will send it and one thing more anarch-communism has nothing to do whit Marxist economics or Marxist social structures communism means a stateless and classless so many anarchists contemporary whit Marx used this name
Menace () - 18 03 09 - 11:20

blak-toothgrin i didnt mean it as an insult but it seems to me that no one has done anything to fight against the american government. me and some other comrades are planning to overthrow the government within two years if we can get enough supporters for the cause. i am suggesting that we fight with rifles and not with words against the government to show them we are not messing around we want things to change and we will do what it takes to acheive freedom for every man woman and child in the world my comrades and i am not afraid to die for the cause and neither are my comrades we have plans to attack military institions in around 10 weeks if suucced or fail you will hear about it but as there are only a few of us we need more support please tell others about the a.l.f. we will try by peaceful terms before we resort to violence. by my backing what are you specifically asking?
jon () - 18 03 09 - 13:48

Jon you will get slaughtered the Black Panthers didn’t achieve what you want to achieve and they had many members and you want a de centralized anarchist group to bring down the government ?? you heard of the Greek riots that happened in 2008 ?? whole Greece rioted the whole country and the government is still standing a revolution comes from below a social revolution present alternatives to your people to your average worker make him see that your path is the true path everything must start from below that’s the problem some anarchists think that anarchism is political violence that ain’t true
Menace - 18 03 09 - 14:42

I’d like to quote A.O.C. for a moment:

[quote]Being a species that cannot co exist with each other simply because of different point of views seriously makes me feel that we are either doomed as a species or have not even begun to scratch the surface of our next evolutionary state.[/end quote]

Doesn’t this throw off Darwin’s theory? We adapt and survive to become stronger than we were before, so if we were doomed from the beginning (as I believe we have been, since we have fought each other for thousands of years) how are we supposed to evolve? We certainly aren’t getting any better.

Remember Einstein’s quote? “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

We will never evolve as a species because we haven’t changed at all over our entire existence. We have only hastened our development to killing each other with our technology. That make me believe MORE that there is a God, because there is no way we could have evolved into the beings we are today. Someone had to create us, maybe for a science project, who knows.

Another problem I have is that in today’s age the church IS religion. Mankind has always been corrupt, so is it possible that we could have corrupted the truth about religion? Is religion today not what it originally was meant to be? What if God really does exist, but all the evidence points otherwise because someone was greedy enough to capitalize on it? You never really can know unless you know EVERYTHING about the subject. To say that you know there isn’t a God, or that religion is stupid is the most incompetent thing I have ever heard.
Stan () - 18 03 09 - 18:05

By the way, the above post wasn’t pointed at A.O.C. I simply used his quote.

On a side note, if there is no God then that means that there really isn’t a conscious, there aren’t any boundaries, and there theoretically aren’t any laws bounding you from doing whatever you want.

So why not pull a Madoff scheme and rip people out of their money, or why don’t we all fuck everything that moves, or why don’t we just get high and do drugs all day so we can feel special, and then rape, kill, and steal from others to maintain our habits?

Why do anything good in this world if there is no God, no punishment, and no remorse for what we’ve done? I know that if I knew for certain, which I don’t, that there isn’t a God, I sure as hell wouldn’t still be in the Army, and I still wouldn’t be worrying every day about my family’s well being. I’d be living life to the fullest.

By the way, the Army’s alright. I’m still being refused medical attention, but I’m on my way to IG to settle this lawfully. Look out mother fucken Army, because Stan is coming through.
Stan () - 18 03 09 - 18:09

Has’nt there been enough blood shed and arguements over religion. Fuck, I mean seriously. As long as religion does not infringe on my civil liberties I could give a rats ass what anyone believes. NO ONE knows the truth and that in itself IS the truth. Just 500 years ago we thought the world was flat, 100 years ago television and cars were non-existent. Are we that arrogant to think we have the answers to the universe right now . lol. That goes for the religious and athiests, both. When we can come to the understanding that we are ants trying desperately trying to grasp the design and purpose of the universe, maybe this arrogance will stop. All that any of us really know, is the trial and error of our own experiences.
A.O.C. - 18 03 09 - 18:48

I have certainly made a large error on my life choice, haha! I’m seeking for medical discharge, after which I will dedicate my time to showing the world what the Army really is like.
Stan () - 18 03 09 - 19:00

Stan, those are common concerns about atheism which I often encounter in my life as an atheist.
For starters, Darwin wasn’t right about everything. His work set the course, put subsequent generations of biologists on the right track, but as for what he himself knew it wasn’t much. What he did accomplish was to develop a beautifully simple and logical thoery which has, thus far, been tested and proven to the maximum extent possible by concerted human effort, defied all ( and there have been very many) attempts to debunk it, and has revolutionized mankind’s understanding of the universe. Evolutionary biology has enabled the fantastic advances in medicine and a wide variety of other scientific disciplines which we all enjoy today.
Human evolution is different than the evolution of, say, a stork.
A stork can observe and learn new hunting techniques throughout its life. These can become quite complicated over time, as the stork hones its individual skills. However, each subsequent generation of stork must learn again and anew, over and over and over.
Humans undergo what is termed “Bio-cultural” evolution, wherein our technology influences and augments our ability to survive in our environment, and in turn our environment influences the kind of tools we make and how we make them. We are, as human being living today, the result of this long process whereby the generations that passed have taught their knowledge to the future. As our tools have improved, so has our ability to survive. As our ability to survive has improved, so have our tools. And as our tools improve, so does our ability to survive. And the better we are at surviving, the better our tools become. And on and on and on and on and on (and on and on and on….)
Long, long ago, mankind reached a critical mass in this feedback loop of development, because of our ancestor’s superb technical abilities, the pace of our technological development far, far outstriped the pace of our biological development. And it keeps on developing, to this very day, faster and faster, as each subsequent generation passes its knowledge and technique on to the next.
This is what makes mankind really special. No other species on earth develops like this. No other species posses the gift of knowledge. And we’re just beginning to realize this now, within the last 200-300 years of our 7,000,000 year history.
As to your ethical concerns about atheism, specifically concerning the potential lack of ethical boundaries. This is a common misunderstanding, and it makes perfect sense in a context wherein God is presumed to be the primary source of legitimacy and good. For atheism, and for non-theistic ethical systems such as Daoism or Confucianism, simple, natural practicality affords the guidelines and boundaries of ethical action. Societies cannot function under certain ethical circumstances. For example, there is a tribe of men in Papua New Guinea (whose name I cannot spell nor shall I). In this community, food is very scarce and one of the few crops which will grow in the poor soil of that region is the Yam. Because of its scarcity, each man maintains his own garder, and guards it with the utmost care and secerecy. Harvest is a very quiet affair, and no man ever shares food with another even under pain of starvation. The yams are believed to be poisoned by black magic, and each man is on constant vigil to protect his crop from sorcerors and theives. This results in a community which is atomized and widely dispersed, and whole villages will teeter on the brink of starvation at harvest time. Indeed, anthropologists have chronicled the collapse and anhiliation of some such villages. However, each village is not the same, and some have more lax restrictions on the sharing of food. These villages, surprisingly, tend to do better during harvest time, survive longer, and enjoy closer familial bonds. The tribes which do not die off, and are replaced by more successful tribes.
Let’s expound further upon this anectdote with an even more extreme hypothetical. Lets suppose that there is a core group of 1000 individuals. They all have a very potent, universal religious experience in which their god informs them that they are free to kill at will, men women children, family and strangers alike, at their discretion and leisure. For obviously practical reasons, such a group could not remain in close physical proximity to eachother, else face certain death. While their god condones them to kill others, most individuals in this hypothetical group retain their individual will to survive. As with all human groups, there are some that view the ethical conventions of their society with greater or more lax concern. In this example, the individuals which would regard the ethical conventions of their society as being highly important would congregate with like-minded individuals, and then kill eachother. Those individuals with lax interest in the ethical disposition to random murder would likely not associate with the others for practical reasons. As per the fact that human endevour is more fruitful when conducted collectively, individuals with a shared lax attitude to compulsory murder would congregate together to work and not die.
As time would go on, these groupings would themselves pass on their values to the next generation. For the group which followed ethical convention, there likely will not be a second generation, and most certainly not a third. However, the group with the lax attitude to compulsory murder will pass that attitude on to future generations, up until such time as compulsory murder is again unthinkable. Indeed, up until such time as an entirely new ethical convention has developed.
The sanctions against unethical behavior for an atheist are very real, and are not delayed until some afterlife. I know that if I do wrong, someone or something is victimized. It is not in my character to be a tormentor or a victimizer, so I avoid doing wrong, especially since I have been on the losing end of that equation. There are entirely practical reasons why to avoind doing things wrong. Now, as an Anarchist, I know that the ultimate arbiter of what is right and wrong in my life is me myself. I know what I feel to be right, and wrong; ethical and unethical. If I align with the state or the church on one issue or the other, fine, great. But if not, I feel no compulsion to obey, and see no reason why I should. And unless appropriate reason is demonstrated to me, I won’t.
But it is very important to remain open-minded and reasonable, for a variety practical reasons.
Hale - 18 03 09 - 19:01

Jon-
If any war is going to be fought, it is to be without guns.
Moses freed his people without weapons.
Martin Luther king Jr. freed his people without weapons.
Gandhi freed his people without weapons.
We shall free our people without weapons.
Blak-Toothgrin - 18 03 09 - 19:03

And Jon, if violence is your means, I will never support you, not as long as there is breath in my body.
Hale - 18 03 09 - 19:07

The sad part is that bullets enslave people quicker than non-violence frees them. I hate to say it, but sometimes violence is the answer, if it is the only answer. Will you stand by and do nothing when those who hate you are attempting to kill you off?
Stan () - 18 03 09 - 19:49

We can’t become as horrible as our oppressors, and that will happen by trying to get rid of them the same way they try to oppress us, with weapons.
Blak-Toothgrin - 18 03 09 - 20:06

I MEANT TO POST THIS A WAYS BACK IN THE THREAD ALREADY.

i have great difficulty being succinct and to the point sometimes. i’ll try.

hale, perhaps you are right, scientific matters could be relegated to other venues. i disagree in that religion and science tend to be THE dichotomy. i think that you would agree that science people don’t need to just sit around and tell each other about that. it seems prudent to freely disseminate science knowledge for the purposes of dispelling the ‘myths’ of our universe, at every opportunity. especially when a community comes together to teach each other. it gives people tools for their mental toolbox, useful for vanquishing the old superstitions to the past. i believe that everyone is very curious about how the universe works from our current perspective, but is perhaps to busy or unmotivated to pursue some science knowledge. every unique contribution to the cause is especially valuable – to me this whole process is policy development for the future of anarchy, the way it should happen; without the bureaucracy.

i realize stan is out for a time, but here’s a good one, for his science shot. everyone always seems to go back to ‘the beginning of time’ argument, chicken and the egg type stuff. 1st law: energy can be transformed (physical matter is actually energy, constrained to a tangible form by several basic forces – ie, gravity), but can neither be created nor destroyed. Keep this in mind while going back to the beginning of time. Time is a byproduct of creating matter. it records the history of the matter that was created -ie, big bang (theory) circa 15billion yrs ago. it turns out that time is in fact, temporal. this has been tested out the wahzoo already. There are several theories of what exactly happened in that femtosecond that the first proton was created during, but science like the large hadron collider will hopefully work out some of those details, within our lifetime. the universe seems to be less and less stable with each passing second – 2nd law: entropy in the universe is constantly increasing. the short of it is, like the chemistry that is occurring in a burning candle stick -ie, releasing energy, all the energy locked up in all the matter everywhere will eventually be released through processes like burning said candle stick. the result at the end of time (no matter left for time to record, having been all reduced to energy once more – this is grande scale everyone) is just energy, just like at the beginning. the so called alpha and omega. energy. which we all the have. the god concept perhaps? fitting, for me anyways. friends, god just has nowhere to hide. take some of these ideas even further, after we become ‘dead’, we actually have nowhere to go! it’s all very interesting, but most importantly, free.

there is nothing intelligent about protein synthesis. look into the ways that fundamental forces interact at a molecular level. god is not hiding out in there either.

the important point is that i’m not smarter than anyone else. this is just fun for me.

for a little more PASSION, i would also like to comment on experience. it’s not my fault that i am a student, i will always be one, out of experience and neccessity. that seems to be the most logical decision for the anarchist – become educated to participate in the free dissemination of knowledge. participate in encouraging freedom. it’s strange to be criticized for that. stan, it’s not my fault you’re in the military. in fact, it was your choice. there was no conscription. you could leave, and face the consequences for that too. we have more in common that you would believe. i regularly attend war zones. but i could not kill another person to save my own life. i could not freely join the military; the concept is completely perverted. the only thing i can do is what i’ve trained to do. fix teeth. after innocent women and children have had their faces torn to shreds, i try and service what remains so that these people can eat, speak, kiss, etc, live some kind of normal life. oh yeah, and i also have to repair the bastards that did the damage, says the organization. so that they can go and do it again. but i have feelings (unfortunately i am human), and children win. those f****** cowards shoot their guns and throw their bombs. perhaps if these men were castrated, they would become non agressive eunuchs. i can’t talk about this more right now. i go to sleep seeing these faces too, so save your ‘deployment’ bullshit. you have a choice. exercise your freedom.

religion attaches strange emotions to time, like ‘my life is important/valuable in this moment’ and ‘it could all be over in a second’. i just don’t understand why christians don’t all just jump off a bridge, and do the after life. oh yeah, they’re supposed to evangelize while they’re here. because otherwise the message WILL NOT PERPETUATE ITSELF BY ITSELF (unlike protein). it needs a voice, literally. there has been at least 50 billion humans alive and dead to this point (conservative, may be double). the new testament is a new invention (qu’ran too), and the rest is some bedtime stories. very few people have been christians or anything else for that matter.

if you want to talk about statistical reality, the universe has worked for a long (proven) time to tinker along to get all this beauty just so that it works just right. but the universe didn’t ‘do’ or ‘try’. an infinite amount of time inevitably leads to perfection of processes. it has nothing to do with god.

please – we must do all that we can to stop the lies concerning intelligent design:
ncseweb.org/taking-action/project-steve

now i’m ranting. afterlife is irrelevant, and it prevents people from fully engaging the present moment. we are science, and as such, must include it until it becomes common speak.
ummichas () - 18 03 09 - 20:57

Jon, it is harder to kill an idea or concept than it is to kill a person. Through the passing of our torch and the planting of our seeds will we see the change that we desire.
A.O.C. - 18 03 09 - 22:22

Jon:
If you are so arrogant to think that showing up with guns blazing will make the government and/or the military say “Ok, I give up,” You have another thing coming. Even if it were a plausible idea, (which it is not) there are millions upon millions of people in the United States that you would have to simultaneously convince that Anarchism is the optimal form of government (or lack thereof) they should embrace. The populace is so en-grained with religion and dependence on their “government” that there would be chaos.

Everyone:
Religion is based on faith. Faith is believing in something you cannot prove. Like A.O.C. said, “there was a time that most brilliant minds in the world thought the earth was flat.” There was a time that scientists thought the atom was the smallest thing, until they split it open and found more. We are still primal in our thinking as humans, because we are still primal ourselves. Until we can harness more than 10% of our brains, it is ludicris to think that we can come to any conclusions regarding religion. We have barely begun to scratch the surface of our own potential. And to think that we have all the answers now, to everything, is completely unrealistic.
Willow - 18 03 09 - 22:44

We’re not as primitive as you think.
We are far more advanced than we ever were before, the only reason there are people who lack intellect is guess what, the government’s fault, and the monetary system they have installed in our society. It allows others to thrive while others die.

p.s: we need a new article A.O.C, Something that actually has something to do with anarchism
Blak-Toothgrin - 18 03 09 - 23:32

Agreed Black-Toothgrin. It is, however, a good point to raise that most people are helt back. It is not just the government like you are saying, but society in general. Yes, the gvenment is part of it. Yes, religion is part of it. Yet factors like the manor which we are educated, the way people socalise, the natural desire to fit in, all contribute to holding some of us back, while others overcome one or two of these factors, and find themselves advance. Overcoming superstition and myth, centralised control, the present monetary system, corupt state funded schools, the bar sceen, and finding a way to fit in without personal compramise will make people free. Yes, you could say that thoughs who support these systems primitive, but can they personally be blamed?

-Comrad Canuck
C.C - 19 03 09 - 06:30

Well when you actually take a good look at it, ALL of it is the Governments fault. Let me break it down for you.

The government installs a money based economy. To help keep this economy running they install trades and markets.
These markets and trades need to be run by someone with an education, so school is installed by government.
Government makes school mandatory because without making it mandatory, nobody would go, for “nobody works when given the chance to play”. So they instill crap in young children’s heads that if you fail at school you fail at life, and if you don’t get a job you are a horrible person. Kids get crap jammed in their head all day-everyday. So they kill themselves with work because they are scared at what will become of them.
Here is the important part where everything back fires:

Seeing how the schools push so hard An underachiever who can’t take it, drops out, because he lives in a monetary system, money is the only thing that counts. So this means it is hard to even get a minimum wage job to support himself. finding no way to get good pay he resorts to crime, if he has a child, he will be will have heavy influence from his father and will not likely be able to do good in school. cycle repeats.

A rich child on the other hand wont even need to go to school, everything is done for him, Which leaves a pompous asshole with
all the money.

So Government is responsible for bad society, crime, and our aggressive attitude towards one another.
They are responsible for ALL of it.
Sorry if this sounds sketchy, but it proves a point

And A.O.C quit redirecting me to spammers suck.com
Blak-Toothgrin - 19 03 09 - 07:43

And living in the far south, I’ve seen this happen to much.
There are countless drop outs, drug heads, underage pregnancies, Aryan Members
We have ghettos, rural areas in shit shape.
And we have like one suburbia and a lot of asshole rich people

On the morning news 3 deaths is a relatively good count, and we have a Damn hurricane every month for six months straight.

Everybody says southerners are kind people, maybe, but only to other white people.

I fucking hate Louisiana
Blak-Toothgrin - 19 03 09 - 07:55

Comrade Canuck brings an excellent issue to the table. Can the participants in institutions be blamed for the actions of those institutions? The answer is, perhaps surprisingly, no. Institutions are by their nature inclined towards self-perpetuation. It is in the character of any institution to populate its ranks with like minded individuals. For example, an institution such as a police department would not promote a member of that department whose goals run counter to the department. Such an individual would not likely even be allowed into the institution. The only individuals acceptable to such an institution would be individuals who had shared goals and views with the institution. Seeing such an individual as beneficial to its self-imposed purpose, the instituion promotes this individual, and eventually that same individual will find themself in a situation where they are somewhat influential within the institution. However, as per the grooming process, this individual will more likely than not maintain the status quo of that institution. In fact, were the individual to do otherwise he would most likely be expelled from the institution.
A police department is a good example for this, I think. Who becomes a cop, anyway? Not somebody who thinks that there should be no cops, that’s practically a given. The only people who are allowed to become cops are people who think that cops are needed, and the only people an institution would allow into its ranks would be people who share enough in common with that institution to meet certian requirements, arbitrarily decided upon by that institution.
Expounding further, we must examine the doctrinal systems, such as churches schools and governments which inform these people in the first place. Even beyond the doctrinal systems, one must examine the whole make up of an individual’s life which influences their decisions and world views. The fundamental problem is education. So long as we allow institutions to teach people that institutions are necessary, there will always be poeple who will defend those institutions, and there will always be some people who share their views and goals with the institution. That is how they self-perpetuate, and that is how they monopolize power away from the freely associating proliteriat, and into the hands of democratically unnaccountable oligarchies and tyrants. In the USA, we call them ‘captains of industry’ or the ‘elite’. In France, they called them the Bourgeoisie. But a piece of shit by anyother name still stinks just as bad and should be thrown out all the same.
But the fact is, these people are simultaneously culpable and exhonerated for their crimes. Everything that they have experienced in their lives, everything they’ve ever heard, been taught, or believed, has led them to the conclusion that they have to be as they are, and that they have to co-operate and exist within oppressive institutions; more often than not, the wealthy would not choose the lives they live were the choice theirs to make, just as most disenfranchised and poor would not choose poverty were the choice theirs to make. The institutions which inform our every decision have roundly forced all people by circumstance into their social categories, and it is this very categorization which ties people, via their inculcated beliefs, to their social position. If you believe you’ll go to hell for burning a rich man’s house, you won’t do it. If you think that, by allowing the ill-informed rabble mass of the proliteriat to make decisions, society will crumble and implode, then you will not do so. Provided, of course, that the poor man believes in hell, and provided that the rich man believes in the fallacy of his ‘superior’ birth. Dispelling such myths and the institutions which implant them, essentially by force, is of critical importance to our cause.

Ummichas, I hope you don’t think this presumptuous of me, but I would thank you to show some more respect to comrade Stan. Discussions such as these proceed so much more fluidly when respect is the currency of discourse.
Hale - 19 03 09 - 10:23

if not by violence what would you have us do to change government with peacful protests and riots that obviously didnt work in greece so if start attacking the government openly maybe then will they listen to us and change if you have any other ideas please contact me. but my group and myself are only teenagers but at least we are trying to do something as far as the south i used to live in south carolina in the ghetto and im white ive seen what happens yeah a lot of people do resort to crime but what else can they do in today’s society. if you dont think violence os the way come up with some other idea and my group would gladly help but if it comes to civil war it has to happen
jon () - 19 03 09 - 12:01

sorry for the spelling errors in the post above
jon () - 19 03 09 - 12:06

instead of babbling about violence Jon study anarchism what’s attacking the government ?? a coup ?? do you have relations in the government ?? i don’t think so Greece is the prime example people attacked and tried to bring down the government but they didn’t back in the 70’s they did brought down the dictatorship of the colonel but now they can’t bring down the dictatorship of a few the first step towards a revolution is to educate the masses if you don’t know shit how can people join you ?? the objective of bringing down the government but why ?? in order to what ?? present the alternatives to the people and the revolution will be spontaneous i am a teen too and i do participate in black bloc’s from time to time and i am an active member of AntiFA but i don’t go conspirating to bring down the is craziness this government it’s not a living entity to be brought down think about that
Menace (URL) - 19 03 09 - 15:56

there are some principles that keep the government alive killing certain individuals inside the government will resolve nothing cause others will replace them in order to bring down the government is to kill the principles which it stands on people die but principles live on
Menace - 19 03 09 - 16:00

Jon i don’t see any reason to be harsh with you, because deep down i think your actually trying to do something
good for the people, your views are just a little of is all.
Violence just isn’t the answer. Do you know how hard it would be to actually take a life?
That would be pretty heavy to deal with.

We can’t become killers.
Blak-Toothgrin - 19 03 09 - 19:07

b 4 u start even thinknig of getting rid of the government , u need to get ALOT more ppl on our side
so we shouldnt be talking about getting rid of the government
the topic of conversation should be how do we get more ppl on our side
[nick] () - 19 03 09 - 19:16

[quote]Vader, I think your views are a little messed up on the subject.
Blak-Toothgrin[/quote]

Hmmm…that’s interesting. I posted a quote, not necessarily my views. I will admit, they are extremely “messed up” but that’s only because I’m part of an insane minority.
[Vader] - 21 03 09 - 07:47

Blak-Toothgrin -> Your views represent the sane. I’m sure. “we are far more advanced than ever before…” Not only is this not true in a historical sense, but also in a literal one. Our progress has not been linear and ever improving. There are many useful technologies that we no longer posses knowledge of… Besides all that, we have created a world that is hell bent on its own suicide. This is “advanced” how?
[Vader] - 21 03 09 - 07:55

a lot of times, patience is not a virtue. especially with dangerous people.
ummichas () - 21 03 09 - 21:37

i like the insane minority
ummichas () - 21 03 09 - 21:41

how then are we to acheive anything? what does the government have an army with guns? how do we present alternatives to the masses when they are to scared to do anything about the crimes the government has committed? i know that a revolution would be nearly impossible but maybe if some of us did rise up then the world hear about the movement and those who want to acheive changing the government peacefully can because it would be so much easier if you could get more people intersted in the subject of anarchy then you could change the way people veiwed society as a whole.
jon () - 22 03 09 - 21:41

In the human way of thinking, everything must have a beginning and an end, a flaw we all share.
Even if science or religion are able to pin point the creation of anything, it is relevant only to human curiousity.
Dwelling on it for too long may drive a man mad.Similiar to choosing whether to awake the wool-bearing majority, or join them. At least they’re happy…
ishmael () - 22 03 09 - 23:15

1. If you want to have a problem with organized religion, fine. You are not entitled to declare that there is no God any more than I have a right to declare to you that there is one. Get over yourself and stop oppressing people based on their beliefs, that’s like attacking a people based on their government, ANARCHIST.

2. I believe that the Bible was divinely inspired but written by a mortal hand. It is inevitably prone to error.

3. You only think that atheism is right and proper because half of the anarchists on this board are just rebelling for its own sake like some little punk brats. Quite honestly, people have just as much a right to be religious or atheist as they do to be anarchist or capitalist or even fascist. IT IS THEIR OWN CHOICE. REMEMBER: THAT IS WHAT YOUR MOVEMENT IS ABOUT. DO NOT BE THE HYPOCRITES THAT TAKE TO THE STREET WITH GUNS AND TAKE AWAY OTHERS’ WILLS IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM!
Dan - 24 03 09 - 11:46

we need to disestablish the government. yes everyone has their choice in religion and politics but when they take away our rights and everybody else’s we have to do something
jon () - 24 03 09 - 16:03

religion is unnatural. the sooner our collective becomes divinely inspired in this regard, the sooner we can all enjoy each others company.
ummichas () - 24 03 09 - 19:56

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-s..

just alil somthn i whipped up for all ya graffiti heads
david () (URL) - 25 03 09 - 08:54

i think we are all lost!!??!!
ken () - 28 03 09 - 15:01

i’m a pantheist. (from the word pantheon)
for me even in the spiritual world all things are represented and anarchic.

i’m surprised by certain statements but nothing that has been said is untruth, in my opinion. Words are a very inadequate tool for the representation of spirituality but with music and art these are the only toys we humans have to communicate these things. Religion for me is the cementation of these words – written in stone!!

ps. aah that feels good. i’ve so missed reading the discussions on this site
gentlefurie - 30 03 09 - 21:44

@jon
Nobody can ever take your rights or freedoms away. You can give them away but nobody can take them from you. If they strike you down and kill you but you die with your dignity and freedom, they took nothing.
Dan - 30 03 09 - 23:38

well, where the hell did you go anyways?
ummichas () - 02 04 09 - 22:23

Ni dieu ni maître!

Ps. how dare you compare religious ppl to pot smokers?
If it were not for pot I would probably have never gotten out of that box. Just another sheep being drained by the farm.
Ukufa () - 21 05 09 - 00:56

http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/chr.. check out this web site or the book if u think gods preachers are so wonderful all religion is the same to control the masses and force them into obidiance. religion is for people with no self worth. believe in yourself and what you can provide for yourself. if there were no gods who would people answer to? themselves not a god or some other man there would be no social order hence the forming of morality and a sense of order. laws of nature rule everything around us except mankind. only the stongest survive, ha not under religion we must drag the weak and frail behind us ultimatly leading to our own demise. I’m sorry but its eat or be eaten my friend Iwill not stand by and kneel and pray for food I go and secure my food. i.e. I hunt I fish I garden and when the world erupts and grocery store shelves go empty then I hope god answers your prayers cause I wont. P.s. invest in knee pads and good luck. And by the way I was raised catholic ugh
kelbone77 - 31 05 09 - 20:09

you all are not real anarchist, you do not understanding real meaning of anarchy, talking against one religious group it’s just wrong, they all the same, and they are product of politic, anarchy fundamental belief is No Gods and No Masters, and you are here just making your self no different than brainwashed americans, anarchy dont have borders, and any free human who think i any way is in lack of freedom, immediately becoming a anarchist, i think is bathar for you all, to not calling you self a anarchist, insted picka a site nazi or republican or democrat, real anarchist is a atheist which don’t hate other because he known they brainwashed
real anarchist () - 25 06 09 - 09:59

to tell you all the truth, i am still very young and i understand if you dont take me seriously but i am an anarchist and i am trying to make my voice heard. i come from an extremely catholic household… probably one of the most spiritual households within my county. i have studied a lot about different religions because… frankly… i enjoy learning and i have plenty of time on my hands. what i am trying to say is i do not believe in organized religion because every religion teaches the same TWO concepts: to be a good to all and to love what you believe in. i do believe in god because i view god more as a symbol of hope, that there is someone always out there looking out for us and that he wants the best for us. i try to be the best person i can be and hopefully everybody else will do the same.
Jason - 27 06 09 - 01:55

hope is a fallacy, sorry friend. people hope that war is going to end…...................

everyone else will treat you the way you teach them to treat you. god is an unjust, selfish, self regulating fairy tale. again, i can’t help myself but say that people need to stop putting their own responsibilities on the back of something – that for all intents and purposes – does not exist.

god gives a shit about things? ha!
ummichas - 28 06 09 - 22:28

I find your approach to spirituality agreeable, Jason. I cannot share your faith in the existence of god, but I recognize your absolute right to your belief. It is chiefly the codification and organization of spirituality into hierarchical, dogmatic and self-perpeutating power schemes which facilitate the oppression of the proliteriat via providing justification for the existence of and participation in the state aparatus as well as disseminating propaganda and fallacious, deceptive rhetoric. It is this aspect of spirituality, which is to say “Religion”, which is derided by most Anarchist thinkers, and I agree. Spirituality is a personal vocation, a series of ponderances and musings which in the context of most Anarchist perspectives (which I have encountered, at any rate) are not at all opposed to the successful functioning of an individual or their community. Religion, as breifly described earlier, on the other hand is entirely anethema, entirely poisonous, to the social revolution. Religion represents the abuse of spirituality for the purpose of exploitation and domination. It comandeers the philisophical aspect of the human spirit and mutates genuine human goodness into means by which people enslave one another.

Hope for a better future is all we have.
Hale - 01 07 09 - 16:53

i think that hope is somewhat self serving. i would suggest that all preceding generations have had this same ‘hope’. it seems that so far, this (current environment/economy) is the best that posterity has come up with! if our current situation is not better than the past, and we’ve always hoped for a better future, i think it is silly to hope.

in short, hope is a gift, and we fail to treat it as such.
ummichas - 09 07 09 - 12:03

i forgot to put my name on the post above.
jenny - 16 07 09 - 09:20

disregard that…

Well, maybe because in hoping we have already given up the incentive to actually be active and do something about the situation. Our present reality can be changed today or tomorrow if we really wanted it to be.

Yet, we fail to take responsibility for the current situation. Its almost certain that a majority of people in this country want a change, but until we blame ourselves instead of others, we can never gain that change.

The only way anarchy would work is if we view ourselves as equal and that everyone realized that we are one, you are me and I, you. This is a state of consciousness that is truly enlightening, yet everything that our country stands for goes against this notion and further seperates us from eachother: organized religion, capatalism, and government, this idea that i am better than you because etc…

Therefore, by viewing ourselves as equal and as one, we begin to accept individual responsiblity for the survival of all, not only for ourselves.

Instead of opposing a force, create a new one. What would your ideal society be like? And how do we achieve this? How can I affect this? These are the right questions, not who is to blame.
jenny - 16 07 09 - 09:22

We need inner power, but not masters. Satanism teaches your own birthday should be the number one holiday.
I like to learn a little from everyone, and put together a mastermind! If we all do that we stand a living chance!

Empower yourself to empower others!
C Rebel (URL) - 21 09 09 - 19:58

“Following, let us have a brief example of the ethical implications of religion.
An atheist and a muslim walk into a neutral charity. Let’s say that both men are equally good and generous
and kind. The Muslim is motivated variously by his personality and the teachings of his religion. He wants to
give because 1: His religion teaches him to do so. 2: By doing so, he believes that he might be saving the
souls of those he helps. 3: By doing so, he believes that he is securing his own place in heaven. 4: By giving,
he could seek to convert others to his religion. 5: Finally, he seeks improve the general state of mankind.

The Atheist, on the other hand, 1: Is not obligated to give; he does because he wants to. 2: The Atheist does
not believe in souls, nor in saving them. 3: The Atheist does not believe in heaven, and does not seek to secure
its favor. 4: The Atheist does not seek to influence others to atheism.
5: He seeks to improve the general state of mankind.

The ultimate difference between them is that the muslim (for this example it could just as easily be any
other religion) has been incentivized for his action. He has been bribed with the promise of heaven, or
perhaps threatened by the fires of hell. He is not doing good, even if that is the result of his action,
because his motivation is flawed and ultimately selfish. Yes, the ultimate goal is to improve the general
state of mankind, and this might even be effected. But it is not genuine, because a truly good person
would seek to improve the general state of mankind out of genuine kindness, not out of fear of hell or
of god; not for the sake of advancing one agenda or the other, and certainly not for the sake of
glory to a fictitious god. “

Not everyone who believes in God goes into a situation like giving money to a charity thinking, “Oh, if i do this i’m going to go to heaven.” The thought of God doesn’t even have to cross their mind. ANYONE can give because they want to help the general mankind, not just for personal or a deities satisfaction. Saying that all people of religions only give to satisfy their God, is an ignorant statement. Saying that all atheists give because they care about the general mankind is ignorant as well. They could been doing it to make them feel better about themselves. Doing something for self satisfaction is worse than not giving at all. Not saying that all atheists do that, or any for that matter, but PEOPLE are selfish, atheist and religious people alike.
yepp - 29 10 09 - 07:50

Here’s to all God haters and self-righteous atheists:

............../´¯/)........... (¯`
............/....//........... ...\....
.........../....//............ ....\....
...../´¯/..../´¯.........../¯ `....¯`
.././.../..../..../.|_…..._| ...............
(.(....(....(..../.)..)..(..(. ....)....)....).)
................./.../..... ../................/
................... /........................../
..................(.......... ..)................/
............................ ../............./
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